The ongoing protest in Hong Kong has been the longest and largest in the city’s history. It has been going on for almost 7 months, and still unresolved with the full consequences yet to be seen. Scenes of on-going violence, tear gas, bullets, pepper spray, water cannon trucks, disruption of public transportation services, road blockage with bricks, smashed shop fronts, vandalised road signs, arrested and disappeared protestors, suspicious suicides, severe injuries, crippled government and politicians, have left Hong Kong society ever divided. While trying to make sense of what has been going on, we all struggle to converse with people who hold different ideologies and political views. We have witnessed damaged friendships and relationships. Family members keep their mouths shut during gatherings, children have been grounded by parents from attend-ing the protests, protestors are forced to stay away from home for their own safety, couple’s breakup, friends become enemies and no longer talk to each other. Colleagues and neighbours become cautious of each other because of unsure political preferences.

What struck me the most is my disagreement with Jackie*, a close friend of mine for over a decade. The conversation happened over dinner this June, shortly after the 12 June Protest, which was the beginning of the ongoing unrest. I was shocked to realise that we have such different perceptions. While I insisted the protestors’ act of throwing bricks was an act of resistance to the excessive police force and structural violence, Jackie argued that the act of throwing bricks dug up from the sidewalk was a violation of law, so it was necessary for the police and government to regain control. I left with feelings of discontentment: why do our political standpoints all of a sudden matter so much?

In order to overcome my struggle, I decided to engage Jackie in a conversation again so that I could glimpse into the reasoning of those who think differently, and why it has been challenging to discuss current politics in Hong Kong nowadays, even within one’s social circle. Despite having different ideologies, are we still able to find common ground?

I would like to express my sincere thanks to Jackie for taking part in the conversation and being honest about her views. I also appreciate Jackie for bringing in her friend Laura*. The conversation was fruitful and insightful because it helps to understand perspectives from different sides of the argument.

*Jackie and Laura are pseudonyms.

Jackie was born in Hong Kong and has emigrated to another country when she was young. Laura was born outside Hong Kong and has lived in several countries, she has recently become a permanent resident of Hong Kong. I was born and raised in Hong Kong, and was educated overseas. We are all in our mid-thirties and either relocated or moved back to Hong Kong around 10 years ago in late 2000s.
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DATE: DEC 12, 2019
TIME: 7PM – 8:30PM
LOCATION: CENTRAL, HONG KONG


What is your view on labels such as “yellow ribbon”, “blue ribbon”, “cockroach”, “black cop”, “dog”*?

*Common labels to identify those in various political spectrums, with “ yellow” and “blue” as opposing sides. While “yellow” refers to pro-democrats, “blue” refers to the pro-establishment or pro-China. “Cockroach” refers to pro-democrat protestors (usually dressed in black) by the pro-establishment camp and some of the police force. “Black cop” and “dog” refers to the police by the pro-democrat protestors.

LAURA
What is dangerous about labelling is that is it easy to be stuck emotionally, that’s why it is so effective and powerful.

HILDA
Reality is filled with grey areas. The use of labelling assumes people act and think in a certain way, but there is always exceptions and ambiguity.

LAURA
Most people are aware of different shades of “yellow”, different shades of “blue”, but that is not enough, we need to let go of labelling altogether.

JACKIE
I also find the use of labels very limiting; it doesn’t really tell you that much, you objectify and generalise too quickly, and that’s how people are like in general.

HILDA
I think the use of labelling is an act of rage, to demonise those who belong to other camps. When the protestors and police put on masks, it is actually harder for the opposite side to identify and relate to them as a person just like themselves.

JACKIE
It is similar to the internet, if you hide behind a veil nobody knows who you are. You’re not liable to what you say nor pay for the consequences. For example, the Stanford prisoner experiment shows that people act a certain way if they are given power.



Do you share your opinion with someone who has a different view?

JACKIE
In a work environment, I don’t think that is too professional to begin with, it could get uncomfortable. There are other issues to be discussed in the office that are equally important. In a family situation, I receive their emails expressing opinion on the current situation, usually they are already making their own assumptions without asking me, given that I am the one living in Hong Kong!

LAURA
I get this a lot as I am opinionated in general. I have friends from overseas that reached out to me to check if I am safe in Hong Kong. I would make sure that they understand what I share is purely my opinion. It might not even represent the views of the majority in Hong Kong, and is only my observation.

HILDA
This is a good point. The problem I notice is when people describe the current situation, they make it sounds like it is the only truth, and dismiss that fact that what they see is only a version of “truth”. I understand people have emotions. Speaking for myself, I also get emotional through watching the news about what has been going on.



As an expat living in Hong Kong, what is your take on the city’s current situation?

LAURA
The question is, can we live in Hong Kong and go on with our lives without talking about what has been going on? Sometimes I feel the decision of not talking might slow down the healing process. However, based on the Hong Kong government’s lack of response, even after the District Council Election, I don’t feel guilty for not standing up and doing the tough job, there is nothing I can do to bring this gap closer.

JACKIE
Hilda, may I ask you as a local, how would you feel if we go on with our lives not wanting to talk about this? Is that a problem for you?

HILDA
I am not sure. I respect that, but I do feel that since we live in the same city with people who might not be comfortable talking about it, I still want to understand why they don’t care as much as I do. I am lucky that I still have friends who share a different point of view, but I have heard that people have stopped talking to each other if they think differently.

LAURA
Personally, I like talking about what is going on. When I said I can go on with my life and not talk about this, what I meant is if the person or group doesn’t want to engage in a potentially more robust conversation than usual, or prefer just talking about the movie, the wine, the food, then I won’t bring it up. But if someone wants to learn my view, I would be happy to share.



Did you vote in the past election?

LAURA
I just got my Hong Kong residency this year, and as someone who lives here, it is important to voice my opinion. But on the other hand, is it fair for me to vote? Meanwhile I don’t suffer from the full consequences of my vote. I do have a job here, which might be in jeopardy if the economy took a real hit, but if it happens, I can just go somewhere else. I am supportive of the protesters, the violence and the ideology to some degree, but is it fair for me to vote on it?

JACKIE
For instance, do shops in Hong Kong really need to open till 11pm each day? Do we really need 3 Sasa cosmetic shops in one single block? No, we do not need any of this. But who is going to pay for that? It is a privilege for me to say it out loud, but who is going to suffer by losing that job in the city? I don’t have to pay for any of this, I can leave anytime.

LAURA
Being a global citizen is not a new concept nowadays, many people move around.

HILDA
I think a lot people voted to make a political statement, it is a message to the government, rather than purely supporting a particular candidate or policy.

LAURA
People are rejecting the status quo, even though they are witnessing the violent protest and already feeling the consequences. It is obvious that it is not child’s play. For the past district council election, the guy in my district who got voted is a journalist, and I had no idea who he was until I voted. I haven’t seen him much because he was actually working and shooting pictures in PolyU (The Hong Kong Polytechnic University) on the actual election day. The woman who has been serving the district for the past 12 years got voted down. I actually see her a lot, she seems to be doing stuff and has been talking to people.

JACKIE
I didn’t vote. I understand the view point of voting out whoever is in power, but to me I need to understand a candidate’s policy, and make sure they will follow through their policy in order for me to vote a person into power. I am not comfortable at this point to be voting in Hong Kong, because nobody announced a concrete plan for the community, and to me it is fairly superficial.



Could you share your experience encountering violence in your daily life?

LAURA
I see many vandalised shops being boarded up and still open for business. For example, the Maxim's restaurants, banks and businesses from China all got boarded up. The only thing they did wrong is being a Chinese corporation. Is that fair?

HILDA
My first encounter of tear gas was June 12, and it was really shocking. I was participating in a peaceful protest outside the legislation council. It was around 3pm and I was sitting outside the building, all of a sudden the tear gas came…

LAURA
My first violent experience encountered was early on in August, there was a protest in the Wan Chai district, and I just happened to be queuing on the street for Kam's Roast Goose. At that time, Hennessy Road was already blocked by the protest but I still decided to queue because it is rare to have so few people around! All of a sudden people started screaming, and ran towards the direction of Causeway Bay, which was towards me! People behind the line got freaked out, they were tourists and didn’t know what was going on so they started pushing me towards the store for shelter. I started thinking about the protesters who were about half my age and out with full gear on. What brings them onto the street? Because this is not funny, it is pretty darn scary.

And then it was the day for me to be in the wrong place at a wrong time. It was few weeks ago when the protestors were trying to draw the police away from PolyU and rescue the protestors and students from the Hung Hom campus. I was meeting a friend from out of town for dinner at 6pm that day, and both TST (Tsim Sha Tsui) and Jordan MTR stations (Mass Transit Railway) were already closed and surrounded by police. I thought meeting at 6pm was early enough to avoid the protest and MTR closure. By the time I got there, Nathan Road was already blocked with bricks on the road. When we got out from dinner at Jordan at 7:15, the street was completely chaotic! There was tear gas, everyone was wearing masks and protest gear and running all over, and we had nothing on and looked like two idiots clearly being lost! So, I told my friend jokingly, don’t tell Michael, her husband, she’s a mother of 3! We just ran and ran and ran, passed around handkerchiefs to block our noses, and eventually we reached the area of Prince Edward safely. I can only Imagine how people felt when the police suddenly fired tear gas on Pedder Street in Central during lunch hour the other day.

HILDA
I was also out on the street that night, outside PolyU. Speaking for myself, I just felt I had to go out and do something, to save the students, to help the protestors, even though I probably could not help much. I was watching the live-broadcasted and decided to head out the street. I reached Jordan by MTR around 6pm, just before the station closure. By the time I arrived the street was already filled with tear-gas, and luckily people were running around, trying to avoid the tear gas. I saw many amateur protestors who obviously had no idea what to do and where to go, but they were still helping each other out. There was a strong sense of community and togetherness.

LAURA
At the time even though it looked freaking scary, I would say we are safe. I wasn’t afraid of the protester, that’s how I generally feel. I’m not afraid for the police per se, but the fact that I didn’t see police actually gave me comfort, because at least the situation wouldn’t escalate.



What is your view on the use of violence and the protest?

JACKIE
I want to understand the general consensus from people who support the protesters, in terms of this act of violence. Where is this going?

HILDA
It is because peaceful protests are no longer working, so protestors want a breakthrough. So, by escalating the use violence, they are forcing government members to react, to step down, to solve and cool things down. We now understand the use of violence is a tactic, and it is also why the majority of peaceful protestors could tolerate the use of violence, to a certain degree.

I also question about my own reasons to engage in violence. I also feel the need to distance myself from what has been going on in order to observe from a broader perspective.

JACKIE
What is the original intent of the protest? It has been going on for several months already, and it is not going towards there, what is the point to continue the use of violence?

HILDA
We want our government to agree on the five demands, it is what the majority of the protest supporters want. Even though the bill was withdrawn in September, it is not enough.

LAURA
Let’s put it in another way. Say I’m in support of the protest and the 5 demands, and with the violence, to some degree one demand is met, in which the extradition bill gets withdrawn, but other demands haven’t progressed. What would be the next step?

HILDA
To a certain degree, I also don’t think the government would address the demands, simply by the use of violence.

HILDA
How about the demand “independent inquiry into alleged police brutality”?

JACKIE
I think the majority of people is supporting that, and the government is working towards that.

HILDA
Another demand, “Amnesty for arrested protestors”, which means all the arrested protestors should be released no matter.

LAURA
I disagree. Whatever they did it has to go through the court and the judicial process.

JACKIE
I don’t agree neither, it is not right. I don’t think burning somebody alive should be let go. Neither is police violence.

HILDA
I agree to a certain degree. For the protester needs to face the consequences for the use of violence and for acting against the law. The same apply to the police, the discussion would be on both sides.

LAURA
To pinpoint the definition of riot is hard. Pretty early on the June 12* protests was categorised as a riot*.

*The 12 June Hong Kong Protest – Thousands of protestors gathered outside the government headquarters to attempt to stop the second reading of the extradition bill at the Legislative Council and demanded its withdrawal. The incident was labelled as a riot by the Police Commissioner and Chief Executive. The label was later backtracked. There were 32 protestors arrested during the incident, and 5 are charged for rioting.

*According to the Public Order Ordinance in Hong Kong law, the definition of a riot is when a group of people participate in an assembly defined as 'unlawful’ or illegal. The maximum penalty for taking part in an unlawful assembly is 3 years of prison sentence. For rioting the maximum sentence is 10 years in prison.

JACKIE
It has been categorised as a riot by the police. However, I think only the court could make the decision.

HILDA
The challenge for the “yellow camp” and the movement is that, it has been a leaderless movement, and all the decision has been made collectively, through discussions online in LIHKG and social media. From observation, if an idea or potential action is not agreed by the majority, it will eventually die down, as it has not been encouraged as a collective. I think people are slowly realising that just violence itself is not that effective. At the same time, the reason why violence returns to the street, even if the pro-democratic camp won an over-whelming majority is that people don’t want to forget what they are fighting for, as the demands have not yet been met.

JACKIE
I was actually quite against violence. I didn't know why until now. I find it ineffective right now, that's why I am against it. It is affecting people's daily lives without getting anything done, it is just causing trouble, that is my biggest issue with it.

HILDA
So, you feel that the protest is affecting the wrong target and the innocent?

JACKIE
Yes, what is the point of targeting the shops, the MTR? For the use of particular violence as a tactic, you already got the most out of it.

HILDA
I do agree that we have not been able to come up with something new, it is unfair for me to say, as I am also incapable of coming up with a new tactic, and I have not been exactly fighting in the “frontline”.

LAURA
Just like the Occupy Central Movement in 2014, I feel that the “2019 anti-extradition-bill-movement” would probably eventually die down unless there is a breakthrough, and I don't know what that would be, otherwise it will go back to the period between 2014 to 2019, and nothing much would change. Since the current problems are unresolved, there is a high chance that something would happen in the near future, and will draw people to the street again. And what worries me is that people will start where they left off, meaning the violence will start from level 5 right away. Say, a peaceful march is level 1, with the use of tear gas being level 4, and the use of petrol bomb being level 5.

JACKIE
Also, there are the fundamentals people have not been discussing aside from the 5 demands the protestors are making. Hong Kong is a part of China, to me this is a fundamental. The city is given 50 years of un-change, but 2046* is going to come. What do people expect in the long run? Is independence what they want? Perhaps it is an option, but the fundamentals need to be laid down before any of five demands is that, Hong Kong is a part of China.

*The year of 2046 is the 50th year of Hong Kong’s change of sovereignty to China since 1997. It is the official end of Hong Kong’s one country-two system.

HILDA
The deadline of 2046 is beyond what we know, there is a lack of discussion.

JACKIE
I think people are not talking about the fundamentals, or China is not allowing proper conversations into this.

HILDA
I think what China wants is that they are slowly easing into the “uniting” or “returning” process, they are hoping a discussion wouldn't even be needed, perhaps in 2046 the “uniting” will be already completed.



What do you see in the future?

HILDA
Even only 6 months ago most people never experienced the exposure to tear gas and now we are getting so used to it. We are now encountering it almost on a daily basis.

LAURA
I have read in the past few months, over 88 percent of people who live in Hong Kong have come in contact with tear gas, and I don't think the number is too far off. I wonder how this experience will shape people, especially younger people who actually participated in the protest, and a certain bad feeling will be carried on within.

HILDA
That would definitely leave a lasting impact, they might develop trust issues, particular with the authority. I am also curious, why are young people so fearless, as if they have nothing to lose? They see nothing in the future.

JACKIE
I honestly don’t think the future is that bad.

HILDA
I have been traveling to Shanghai for work in the past 5 years, and I have to say that my impression of the city has been positive so far. I wonder if some Hong-Kongers have ever been to China, if they have ever really met with a local Chinese person?

JACKIE
I am not talking about China alone. I know I am privileged, if you equip yourself with a certain specific skill that are necessary, it will bring you places, you're not by all means stuck, nobody is really stuck. Even if you don't go to China, you could go to another country, a developing country, such as Malaysia.



What are your thoughts on the Greater Bay Area*?

*A long-term scheme initiated by the Chinese government to develop several cities in the Guangdong Province as a whole, Hong Kong is one of the cities included.

JACKIE
To be part of the greater Bay Area honestly is not a bad idea. Correct me if the numbers are wrong. When Hong Kong was handed over to China 20 years ago, Hong Kong counted for about 20% of China’s GDP, now it is only down to 2%. That’s why it is important to align the fundamentals. Hong Kong is part of China. Not saying I agree with the loss of democracy but we need to face the reality, the basic law only gives you until 2046, so what is it for the long term? Like, what exactly do people in Hong Kong want? Do people want independence, to become Singapore?

LAURA
I think potentially people want another extension of 50 years. It is a fact that Hong Kong is part of China, no debate, no question. But without the Hong Kong stock market, a lot of Chinese companies would have nowhere to go to raise their money. A corporation needs to raise capital, to find the right kind of investors, and to have the right capital market structures to suit their needs.
 
JACKIE
It is still difficult to bring money in and out of China, right? That's why Hong Kong has this special status. Still, from a GDP standpoint, Hong Kong is not as important as it was 20 years ago.

LAURA
I think that’s definitely true. It is really about the importance of the Hong Kong stock market to the Chinese economy. GDP is only one measure, there have been talks about if China takes away Hong Kong’s special status, Shanghai could easily replace Hong Kong. I'm like, really? The fact is that China has already tried that. It is also true that the cities in China are rising. Hong Kong was the most important port in the region throughout the past century, but now even Ningbo has more cargos passing through their ports.

I feel Hong Kong people are very pragmatic. At the moment there is too little information and insight other than verbal bullying, I am talking about both camps. Both selectively pick and choose facts to support their claims, it is like tapping into two separate conversations even though they are talking about the same thing. In one way it is important to protect Hong Kong identity. On the other side there is the nationalistic Chinese saying: we've done so much for you, what an ungrateful child!

JACKIE
Exactly, people just choosing facts to fit into their narrative. I dislike illogical conversations, I'm not judging at any point; I just want to lay the facts out and have a logical conversation.

LAURA
It is like two sides of the same coin, the picking and choosing facts without knowing the full picture. People are so convinced there is only one way to look at things. Say you just take from Western media and put that against Beijing media, which is the complete opposite – you could get a totally different story. Because of social media we all live in our own bubble, our own version of reality, it is all curated around us.

JACKIE
Before the previous American general election, I never knew that news could be that biased, and people only watch news channels that supports their views.



Do you think it is possible to be neutral?

JACKIE
I don't believe in it. There is always a viewpoint regarding things.

LAURA
Recently I started to think, what is “fact”? I think “facts are just hand-picked information pieced together, through editing”. I think it is near impossible for people to be neutral, the best I could do is try not to seek information to support my view, but try to see from another perspective, which is uncomfortable. I could get really burned out and frustrated having those conversations, and am I brave enough to have another discussion? When expressing opinion to a person with a different view, it is hard, but try to be as objective as logical as possible, not in the way to convert you from Camp A to Camp B, so that people are not discouraged.

JACKIE
I don’t mind conversion, only if it is a factual and logical argument.

HILDA
The question is, is it right for me to convert? Of course, we all have things we feel strongly about. But then how do I know if it is the truth?

JACKIE
You don't have to know the truth; I think people just need to have an open mind. If you could calmly explain to me, I can see your viewpoint. But if that person is completely illogical, then I'm sorry, I just can’t see what you're seeing.

HILDA
Going back to what you mentioned about the escalation of violence. I think whether or not it is effective is one thing, I think the problem is people are becoming very emotional. I feel it has not been easy for the protestors to step back and see what is going on, as it has been so intense the events after events. For people who are protesting, of course, it is ideal if they could step back, but sometimes people see stepping back or reflecting as a sign of weakness. I also agree people should keep an open mind.

LAURA
I think I'm trying to find the silver lining. I think everyone in Hong Kong should get some sort of counselling, because it's been six months and unless you are a monk or a zen master, you are not quite right. Not that you'll do crazy things, but you're not mentally healthy, so wouldn't this be a good opportunity to remove that stigma to seek for counsel-ling? I mean maybe it's a good opportunity for everyone to admit they need it.

HILDA
Also, when I converse with others, I have to be sure I am already calm. If I get hyped up or emotional after participating in protests, that would not be the right moment to talk. This applies for those who share the same view, because I don’t want to encourage negativity. Since the protest has been going on for 6 months, hopefully protestors are able to step back and see what has been really happening. Eventually people will have to learn how to live with each other.
 
LAURA
Another positive thing that came out of this is something that multiple friends of mine have been saying. Because there were protests happening every weekend in September and October, many of them just decided to stay home, clean the apartment, or finish a book they were reading.

HILDA
Prior to this I could never imagine violence or disturbance could be so close to home. I am also surprised how adaptable people can be, and become accustomed to the violence happening. If the MTR service abruptly stops, which is inconvenient but people would quickly find another way to get to where they’re supposed to be. I realise there are multiple ways to live, there is not one habit that cannot be changed, neither good or bad. Before I also couldn't imagine how people could live in a war zone, but then you just have to carry on, life still goes on after all.
 
JACKIE
I mean, I won’t compare us to a war zone.

HILDA
Correct, perhaps this is nothing compared to an actual war zone, but I am starting to understand more. In such a situation either you choose to carry on, choose to leave if it is an option. Or else stay and keep on fighting if it is the right thing to do.